tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post2791069362679850404..comments2024-01-20T07:17:13.678-05:00Comments on Phil Wyman's Square No More: Belief and Being: The problem of communicating our faithPastor Philhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07344719487413688550noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-9128002975368193452007-10-09T08:37:00.000-04:002007-10-09T08:37:00.000-04:00Interesting post, interesting discussion.I just wa...Interesting post, interesting discussion.<BR/><BR/>I just wanted to say that my Paganism is not rooted in my ethnic identity, because I am attracted to a variety of ancient cultures and couldn't simply settle on one of them. I wonder if a lot of US Pagans are keen on recovering their ethnic roots because they feel rootless? My Paganism is rooted in my love of nature.<BR/><BR/>Actually the reason Pagans feel threatened by evangelical behaviour is that many of us come from, and have been hurt by, evangelical and/or fundamentalist backgrounds, and really don't need more of the same. We are happy to accept constructive criticism, but we don't want to be converted.<BR/><BR/>Pagans do believe in the Unseen - we just believe that the material world is the visible manifestation of the Unseen. I think you mean transcendent (as opposed to immanent). Evangelical Christians tend to believe that the Divine is entirely outside the world; whereas Orthodox Christians believe that God's energies are in the world.<BR/><BR/>Also, the Pagan hope is that the world will get back into balance (our definition of perfection); whereas the Christian hope is that the world will pass away and be replaced by a new one. I think this comes from Pauline Christianity rather than from Jesus.<BR/><BR/>Pagans want the Divine to be ever more immanent in the world; Christians want to return to the Divine source.<BR/><BR/>The problem with Pagans is many of us tend to be naive about evil behaviour (e.g. genocide) - where did it come from, how will it be fixed.<BR/><BR/>The problem with Christians is that they put too many things in the "evil" category that are actually natural (magic, tsunamis, lions eating lambs, etc.)<BR/><BR/>I think there needs to be some dialogue around these issues. I was interested that you used the image of the spiral - most Pagans would indeed agree that a combination of cyclicity and linearity would produce a spiral.<BR/><BR/>One way of facilitating dialogue would be for everyone to read some Jewish theology, and indeed some Orthodox Christian theology (I recommend Bishop Kallistos Ware) :)<BR/><BR/>Warm wishesYewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-19034519969282046542007-10-02T09:10:00.000-04:002007-10-02T09:10:00.000-04:00Redge,You're right, I can't help myself. Sometime...Redge,<BR/><BR/>You're right, I can't help myself. Sometimes even rhyme flows out of me like a rapper.Pastor Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07344719487413688550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-73754463641232758982007-10-01T12:08:00.000-04:002007-10-01T12:08:00.000-04:00Now you sound pretty poetic yourself ;)RedgeNow you sound pretty poetic yourself ;)<BR/><BR/>RedgeRedgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03195782676167885297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-37290263439037987352007-09-30T21:31:00.000-04:002007-09-30T21:31:00.000-04:00Wow Redge,Nice post. Of course the assumption of ...Wow Redge,<BR/><BR/>Nice post. <BR/><BR/>Of course the assumption of the Christian faith is that things are going in both directions, and as you state perhaps sometimes in no direction (staying the same) at all. I think for me this comes down to personal responsibility. In devotion to the right things things are getting better. In devotion to the wrong things they are actually getting worse in many respects, although occasionally intercepted by divinity to keep me graciously from ruining myself.<BR/><BR/>So with God I do find myself saying things are getting better - even though the seasons may seem to rise and fall like the ancient kingdoms in my history books.Pastor Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07344719487413688550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-53654502611915019472007-09-30T07:43:00.000-04:002007-09-30T07:43:00.000-04:00Very acceptable. This resonates with a mantra that...Very acceptable. This resonates with a mantra that I hold very dear: "Every day, bit by bit, things are getting better."<BR/><BR/>This can be a very interesting discussion in itself: I think most people, if asked, would say they belief things get better with time, if maybe slowly. Although we are faced with seemingly repeated behavior, repeating history, we believe in the end we'll learn from this and things will be better the next "time around", to keep within the metaphore of a spiral.<BR/><BR/>No this believe is very interesting in itself. It could be inspired by inductive, empirical evidence: we see it happening. But it could also be motivated by some emotional imperative, conscious or otherwise: "I have to believe that things will get better, otherwise, what is the point?" Most interesting and, I think, what occurs in most cases, is a combination of the two: with this imperative motivating us, we pick out the evidence of things getting better, and giving them greater importance than evidence to the contrary, namely that things repeat themselves without improvement, merely in a new form.<BR/><BR/>Without hoping to seem pretentious, I would like to quote here one of my favortie poems:<BR/><BR/>"Behold, we know not anything.<BR/>I can but hope some good will fall,<BR/>at least -far of- at last, to all,<BR/>and every winter turn to spring.<BR/><BR/>So runs my dream, but what am I?<BR/>An infant, crying in the night.<BR/>An infant, crying for the light.<BR/>And with no language but a cry."<BR/> - Alfred, Lord Tennyson<BR/><BR/>RedgeRedgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03195782676167885297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-43619135586516853942007-09-27T11:43:00.000-04:002007-09-27T11:43:00.000-04:00Redge,Worthy reply indeed!The single and finite or...Redge,<BR/><BR/>Worthy reply indeed!<BR/><BR/>The single and finite orientation I think need not be the one focus of Christian faith. Although that emphasis is typically found in Evangelical Christianity, it is not that way in all Christian traditions.<BR/><BR/>A focus upon the present realities of faith, and the practical dynamics of transformation may point to distant perfection, but the fact is that the present is part of the trail toward a goal, and each and every action carries with it eternal ramifications. Some actions may be vain and empty, but that too is eternal in its ramifications. Other actions carry along as dynamic and beneficial parts to the story of redemption, but all actions follow us as descriptive of who we are, and who we will become.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps a straight line goal orientation is not our best description (the "straight and narrow" is actually better translated as the difficult and narrow), but perhaps we walk a spiral: circular (repeating themes both good and bad), but still still in movement upward.<BR/><BR/>Dang - now that sounds really Pagan to call the path a spiral! but I think it is a good directional identifier which creates a sense of both horizontal (a present reality living in active belief in this world), and vertical (connecting to the unseen and future goals) movement.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure that made sense, but I hope so. And I hope I responded acceptably to your rather deep post.Pastor Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07344719487413688550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-67560877944632065462007-09-26T17:34:00.000-04:002007-09-26T17:34:00.000-04:00A very informative devision, and yet a new insight...A very informative devision, and yet a new insight into the differences of Christian and Pagan psyches. I particularly liked the third to last paragraph, about Christian proclamation of faith being received as challenges against a person's being. This could go a longway toward explaining (and one might hope even eleviating) tensions in religious debates between Christians and other believers.<BR/><BR/>In this context, it might be interesting to take a look at some Eastern philosophies, taoism in particular, that pertain to both being and becoming. To a taoist, the current state is fleeting, as the tao is always in motion: therefor, we are always changing. Unlike eschatological hope however, these changes are not made in a particular heading or goal: the changes are circular, meaning the same state will be reached again and again ad infinitum. This is then translated into a state of being where contentment and action in accordance with the changes of the tao are important.<BR/><BR/>This emphasises some aspects of Christian belief accompanying change: that the change need neccesarily be toward a single goal (personal transformation, favorable judgement) and none-circular, in other words finite. Because change is constant, but only in a single direction, the present is less important as it will not return again.<BR/><BR/>Of course, one might argue that history strongly indicates a certain circularity ("history repeats itself") and that therefor, a state of belief where the present is considered less important than the future is victim of short-term thought. I wonder: how would you respond to this?<BR/><BR/>A bit long winded perhaps, but I feel I must do justice to this fine post with a worthy reply.<BR/><BR/>Redge<BR/><BR/>P.S.: Having trouble with this form, so excuse me if this post should appear double.Redgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03195782676167885297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-85987521896630299892007-09-26T14:44:00.000-04:002007-09-26T14:44:00.000-04:00Mike,Ain't that the great thing about graceful tru...Mike,<BR/><BR/>Ain't that the great thing about graceful truth. It informs a greater audience everytime. I appreciate you muchly bro.Pastor Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07344719487413688550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-58132025617027221392007-09-26T11:42:00.000-04:002007-09-26T11:42:00.000-04:00The really good thing about this is that it inform...The really good thing about this is that it informs both the Chrostian and the Pagan. :)<BR/><BR/>BB<BR/><BR/>Mikecernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06159048983588703450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-21992157199030589802007-09-25T15:57:00.000-04:002007-09-25T15:57:00.000-04:00Sally,Anytime you say "excellent" it is meaningful...Sally,<BR/><BR/>Anytime you say "excellent" it is meaningful. Thank you.Pastor Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07344719487413688550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-91933619644662414192007-09-25T13:45:00.000-04:002007-09-25T13:45:00.000-04:00excellent Phil, thanks :-)excellent Phil, thanks :-)Sallyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01759963926280667938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-77201399354329025452007-09-25T09:28:00.000-04:002007-09-25T09:28:00.000-04:00Carl,I like your divine discontent thought here, a...Carl,<BR/><BR/>I like your divine discontent thought here, and I do reach for a faith which speaks to being as well as becoming.Pastor Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07344719487413688550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-51543643647908379732007-09-25T09:27:00.001-04:002007-09-25T09:27:00.001-04:00Thanks BrianThanks BrianPastor Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07344719487413688550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-60285344890776669692007-09-25T09:27:00.000-04:002007-09-25T09:27:00.000-04:00Steve bro,I think that being and becoming should b...Steve bro,<BR/><BR/>I think that being and becoming should be equal parts of the faith we follow. Unfortunately, the communication of Evangelical faith has often been based in discussions of eschatalogical hope, or doom (Heaven and Hell) solely. This post is a challenge to that point I suppose.<BR/><BR/>Yet, the fact still remains, if we hold beliefs which are by nature rooted in the Unseen, and in a future hope it will challenge people, and we will necessarily be forced to understand that this is true.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps more deeply challnging is the fact that we do not hold a faith in ourselves, but in an Unseen Other with some theologically fixed definitions. Faith in a postmodern context is often a moving target based upon life experiences of the faith holders.Pastor Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07344719487413688550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-82549447127156610222007-09-25T08:48:00.000-04:002007-09-25T08:48:00.000-04:00Never really thought of it that way. Very good poi...Never really thought of it that way. Very good point.<BR/><BR/>I think most people, perhaps everyone, christian or not has a sense of discontment in life and self. Sometimes it's large sometimes small. This discontment must imply a need to become instead of remaining in our current state of being. Perhaps in sharing our faith we could mention this universal sense of divine discontent? Just throwing that out there. I think Steve has a good point about the orthodox view which includes both "being" and "becoming".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-22362938270439157972007-09-25T03:42:00.000-04:002007-09-25T03:42:00.000-04:00Thanks for wrestling with question Phil, appreciat...Thanks for wrestling with question Phil, appreciate this post a lot.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01215877954470519727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28637516.post-38622689733915967382007-09-25T02:14:00.000-04:002007-09-25T02:14:00.000-04:00Very interesting view of things. I wonder what you...Very interesting view of things. <BR/><BR/>I wonder what you make of this, though: <BR/><BR/>"We agree with those who have reminded us in recent years that the Christian faith is <I>indicative</I> (the <I>fact</I> that God reconciles the world in Christ), not <I>imperative</I> (<I>Go</I> to church! <I>Do not</I> drink bourbon! <I>Feed</I> the hungry! <I>Search</I> and <I>destroy</I>!). But we believe that St Paul's use of "reconcile" calls attention to a special kind of behavior by the Christian toward the world. Behavior which "does" by <I>being</I>, "acts" by <I>living</I> - that is, <I>being</I> and <I>living</I> as God made us in Christ" (from Will D. Campbell and James Y. Holloway, <I>Up to our steeples in politics</I>).<BR/><BR/>That's an Evangelical take on it, but the Orthodox Christian view seems to be about both being and becoming.Steve Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11283123400540587033noreply@blogger.com