Enculturalization and the Gospel in Our Own Land

Andrew Jones the Tall Skinny Kiwi posted today about Brother Flack, a 100 year old missionary who Tall Skinny suggests ought to be the Patron Saint of the Emerging Church. It is a great post.

The quotes from Brother Flack highlight adaptation to culture in which one is ministering, and this is what Tall Skinny identifies as an emerging church dynamic having been around for a lot longer than the Emerging Church Movement.

"Go as a learner. Be prepared to learn from the national people and from the culture of the country. Do not try to make the churches like the one in your own country. Do everything you can to develop indigenous growth. Do not be masters; be servants. Identify in every way you can with the people God puts you among." says Brother Flack.

Having aggressively attempted this style of evangelism for a couple decades now, and having been acknowledged by missionaries as doing a missions model within the United States I have discovered something a bit disconcerting.

It has become popular enough to talk about adaptation to new cultures if someone moves to a far away place to preach the Gospel. There is an expectation that there will be a season of enculturalization for the new missionary. This is accepted as a necessary adaption for the growth of the Gospel.

In our own land new cultures are developing all the time. Adaptation, and learning from these developing cultures is not nearly as acceptable to the ecclesiastical powers that be as adaptation to foreign cultures. One can get themselves into some pretty sticky situations. I agree Brother Flack ought to be the Patron Saint of the Emerging Church, but if you practice his ways - oh, Brother are you gonna take some Flack! Sorry, bad joke, but still a good point.

Eventism, Contemporary Christianity, Festival Life as a Means of Evangelism, and My Dilemma

I have been concerned about the state of Evangelical Christianity as an event based establishment for most of the 24 years I have been a pastor. I have written extensively about "Relational Christianity", as I have typically called it for the last 20 years, as a model of church life preferable to event based Christianity.

My thinking is this: As evangelicals we have understood that church is not a building. Most of us were smart enough to figure out that the frailties, banalities, and fallenness of humanity made it impossible for a corporate structure such as a denomination to be a definitive expression of "The Church," but somehow we still seem to describe church as an event.

Rather than something we are, church has become something we go to, and something we do. It is and event on a Sunday morning, or a series of events. It has become Eventism.

I still believe that this is true for much of Evangelical, Charismatic, and Pentecostal Christianity. I still believe that this is less than ideal, and sometimes detrimental to church life.

Despite viewing Eventism as detrimental to a holistic relationship with God, I am beginning to consider a new way of doing things - a way of doing things, which comes dangerously close to the very way of church life I have disliked for so long.

Here is my dilemma: I am looking at the nature of our culture, and the manner in which people gather. I see people running from event to event, and finding their source of fun, recreation, and renewal. This looks reminiscently like the fashion of spiritual gatherings in the Old Testament. There is no mention of church gatherings on Sunday mornings, and even the Sabbath was not set aside for sermons and worship singing, but rather for rest. Instead of church the people gathered in festivals throughout the year, and these festivals became the source of connection to the greater community of the faithful, and the center of Israel's religious life. Now the New Testament has a different spiritual feel. The people gathered daily at the temple in the first few chapters of Acts, and the first day of the week soon became a standard time of gathering for the followers of Christ.

The church I pastor is in the center of Salem, MA. 1 million people pass by our doors each year - most of them come in October during the Halloween based events. We have thousands who pass through our doors. They have a spiritual experience based upon a gracious attempt to relate to them caringly, and creatively, and then they head home to the various corners of the earth from which they came. We have crashed this festival Salem calls Haunted Happenings, and have created one of the best parties within the larger party in the whole city. This has allowed us to briefly pastor tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people, even if only for a moment, over the last ten years.

I have wondered if we are in a new season lately. We have learned to crash the festival and create life changing experiences people want to be a part of. Could it be that it is time for us to create festivals, which people want to be a part of?

I have been part of a hundreds of Christian festivals over the 30 years of my following Jesus, but typically no one but church goers want to be a part of those festivals. Is it time for me to learn how to develop a festival, which the world wants to be a part of? Is it time to learn how to create the life-changing type of festivals like those of the feasts of Israel?

I think the answer is yes, and our location, and our mission as a church seem to say yes, but I tremble at the thought. Even as I tremble, I am attempting a couple festival type events as a means of pastoring the greater community of Salem (and beyond actually).

How this will contrast with, and perhaps create a struggle with my desire to break the habit of Eventism in the church is yet to be seen, but it is part of the adventure we are on at this time.

May God smile.

Update on Halloween in Salem

I have finally got around to giving an update on our Halloween activities in Salem. Off course you have to remember that our Halloween is a month-long experience called Haunted Happenings. You can find the update here on our church blog.

Drum Circles, Witches, Children, Belly Dancers, and Drunks

Last night (Saturday, October 4th) we held a drum circle at church. Mamadou Diop the Senegalese drummer, guitar player, rocker, and band leader from Salem offered to help run the drum circle for us. Every drum circle needs a couple really serious drummers. Mamadou and his team are really serious drummers, so we were going to rock.

We put out flyers. We sent info to our mailing list. On the day of the event Carlos and I sat outside The Vault (the name of our church location), and beat some drums as advertisement for the upcoming drum circle. Little kids stopped with their parents and beat along on the bongos. A few people said they would be back, and a local Witch said she wanted to come and belly dance. We had billed the event as: "Bring your Drum, borrow a drum, learn to drum, come and dance, join the party." So of course, Belly Dancers were welcome too. This was an open event for anyone who wanted to join in.

At 5:45pm Mamadou and his troupe of drummers arrived. There were about eight of them, and then some of the gang from The Gathering arrived. I suggested we move the circle outside. It was a warm Fall evening, and we thought that it would be a good crowd gatherer. The tourist season is officially in full swing in Salem, and the crowds were here indeed. We set a half circle of chairs in the open square just outside the church doors and brought out the drums.

The drumming began, and the crowds started gathering. We had extra drums for people who wanted to join in. Three to six year old children sat down and banged out rhythms to Mamadou's African beats, which I was trying to keep up with.

There were pentagram T-shirt wearing older women, little kids, teenagers, old hippie guys, and then the belly dancer arrived, and the crowds got bigger. The Witch belly dancer has angel wings tattooed on her back from her shoulders to her lower back. Then a drunk guy sat down next to me and had a hard time sitting up straight, but looked like he was having fun. After about 30 minutes the drunk guy said, "I dare you to get naked," through his crooked smile.

I said, "I don't think so."

Then he said, "Can I get you a beer?"

"Um, no thanks, I think I'll pass."

Then he meandered off only to return 15 minutes later with a six pack. Not a good move in downtown Salem, but the police didn't come around, and he seemed to keep in six pack in the canvas bag he carried. I think the drum circle kept his attention, and he forgot about his beer.

So the drums pounded out their rhythms in downtown Salem. The kids and parents joined in. The crowds stood around, and dropped dollar bills in a box Mamadou's people set out. People cheered. The belly dancer came in and out of the church with costume changes.

I live in a weird world. African drummers, little kids and their parents, old hippies, pentagram T-shirt wearing grandmothers, Witches in full garb, a Pagan Belly Dancer, and a drunk. This is who shows up when we throw a party at The Gathering. Acceptance is a messy, and beautiful thing methinks.

This church location we have is an experiment. It is an experiment in acceptance toward the whole community of Salem, and the strange characters who live here, and I guess "I is one." It is an experiment in trying to be an enhancement to the businesses downtown. It is an experiment in living out our Christianity in a post-modern, post-Christian world. I guess this is part of what the experiment looks like.

My Three Day Story

I placed a post on our church blog following my experiences over three recent days. These were not three typical days, but then there really are not typical days in Salem. (I am convinced there really are no typical days anywhere, but that's another story.) So to stop from blathering on here's the link to that story.

Social Action and Pentecost: non-verbal expressions of our faith

And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:1-5)

The Franciscan call says, "Preach the Gospel. When necessary use words." The heart of Christian social action is found in this dictum. God's care for the world should be expressed by His people in acts of mercy and giving. The poor should be cared for, and the oppressed relieved. These actions often speak louder than words, and carry the seed of the Gospel in them.

In comparison evangelical and Pentecostal Christianity sometimes look (and sound) shallow, and pompous next to taking serious social action. Of course Christians should be involved with caring for the impoverished and oppressed of the world, but I wonder if the above words of the Apostle Paul are the connecting dots between social action and Pentecostal faith.

His Gospel, perhaps like that of Francis of Asissi, was not simply spoken, but illustrated. Paul healed the sick and cast out demons. He demonstrated God's power through his prayers and blessings to the impoverished and the oppressed, and he did so in such a way as to emphasize his own weakness. By this he more perfectly illustrated the Gospel - He clearly modeled salvation as an act of God's power moving upon humans despite their incapacity to save themselves.

Healing and deliverance through the miraculous acts of the Spirit of God are still the greatest social action moments of the Biblical narrative. They do not by any means give Christians the right to ignore caring for the poor and oppressed in practical ways, but our knowledge of God's power should cause us to desire the spiritual gifts and move into a wholly new realm of social action.

Repent America Street Preacher Found Guilty in Salem

Each of the last four years (actually it seems like more, but that's what the paper says) Michael Marcavage and his friends come to Salem to hold big signs, and preach through bullhorns on and just before Halloween. In the Salem News today there is story about Michael being found guilty.

Our church has a little history with Michael. He had some things to say about us in a recent article in Salem's other paper The Salem Gazette.

Here is Repent America's video taken during the arrest on Halloween:


Now, I have some distinct feelings about this issue, and will simply say a few things related the subject, which might help shed some light on the subject from a local pastor's point of view.

1. Repent America is not supported by any of the local churches in their activities here in Salem. I am not even aware of a local church which appreciates their activities (I suppose there may be one, but I am not aware of any.)

2. Over the last number of years I have known street performers, and people barking for events who have been asked to stop using amplification, and even stop working prior to the 10pm curfew set against such noise. Noise ordinances, public complaints, and crowd unruliness during Halloween night have all been reasons for the police request to stop. Preachers have NOT been the only individuals requested to stop.

3. Every year our church is the single largest Christian presence on the street during the month long Halloween season. We obey every request of the police, and if something unique pops up, we resolve the situation with the help of city officials before we resume our activities. Despite working with the police in this manner, we find that people stand in line for up to an hour to experience our events, and despite the fact that we do not emphasize making a decision to receive Jesus, we see between 30 and 40 people make that decision each year, because they ask how to get closer to God. (This is not information I have shared at any time before, because we are sensitive to the fact that Evangelical Christianity looks like it is FORCING conversion upon people, and we never want to be guilty of that heinous crime against nature - even though we are evangelical.)

4. Our people have been asked by the Pagan community to be protected from these same street preachers, and we went out to bring peace on the streets.

So, what do you think? Does taking away a bullhorn amount to restricting free speech?

Live Radio Interview Tomorrow in the UK

I've been asked to do a live radio interview in the UK tomorrow at 10:40am EST (USA). Premier Christian Radio is doing a telephone interview on Wednesday 26th with me at this time. The interview is for the Premier Drive show with Bridgitte Tetteh and Dave Rose.

This is what they asked me to consider:

"I wanted to talk about your ministry in Salem. Probably focusing on Paganism, Neo-Paganism, Witchcraft. To let out listeners realise that this still exists and understand that Witches are real people too.To understand how you can minister or talk to someone who may be into Witchcraft . To talk about your experiences with people that are in to Witchcraft."

I am told that interview will be "general and light."

If you would like to tune in to it you can do so online at Premier Christian Radio at 10:40am EST, or 7:40am PST for my West coast of the USA friends. This means 3:40pm for my friends in the UK.

Beyond the Pall (Part 8): Living in a Pagan World

(Beyond the Pall is a continuing series following missional engagement with the Neo-Pagan community in Salem, MA and beyond. The story began with the death of a friend who was a prominent Witch in Salem. I was a pall-bearer at his funeral, and so this series carries the title with its not un-purposeful similarity to the term “beyond the pale.”)

Photo by Christine Cleere found at The Druid NetworkWe were six in number. They were 250. I've been out numbered by far larger odds in ministry outreach settings before, but these numbers were more intimidating for the average Christian than when I was one of 12 Christians among 5,000 Mormons. We were six Christians among 250 Druids. Some pastors would have felt like Elijah among the prophets of Baal. I felt at home and among friends. The five others with me would feel that way at the end of three days.

We offered to hold a Dream Interpretation booth at the Lammas Games. They accepted, and we planned the first few days of our mission trip to join the Druids in South Oxfordshire. Daniel interpreted dreams in Pagan Babylon. Certainly we could try to do so in a Neo-Pagan gathering in Britain.

We arrived early, and found a campsite location in the afternoon shade. We helped haul the roughhewn wood, and put our hands to building the stage. We got to know the leaders of the event, and then we built our own booth from the same roughhewn lumber.

From our shady location we could watch all the happenings for the event. The food and ale were to the left of us, and ferret racing was near the stage directly across from us. The sound system was powered by two stationary bicycles, which volunteers took turns pedaling.

In the center of the event a circle was formed with eight tall flags. This would be the location of the ritual at the end of the day.

As people began to fill the site, we interpreted dreams for a few. Others simply wanted to know what we were doing there. They heard we were Christians, and asked us how it was that we could attend the event. Each time this question was asked, I asked in return, "do you think Jesus would avoid coming here?" Of course, no one thought that Jesus would have avoided the event, and we began to wonder how it was that Christianity and Jesus were not perceived in the same light.

As the day wore on, a small cadre of vendors and attendees began to gather around us. They sat and talked with us, and shared their life stories. With some regularity, people shared their interest in, and sometimes even their love for Jesus, but their dislike, and wholesale rejection of Church and Christianity was evident. Again we wondered how Jesus and Christianity became so detached from one another in the eyes of those outside the church.

Our little troupe was relatively comfortable in this strange setting of hippies, spear chucking, the mention of Pagan deities, and ale drinking. The booth next to us heard me play my guitar and sing. They asked if I was joining the competition for the "Spear of Lugh." The holder of the Spear of Lugh would stand as the Druidic Bard for the year. I put my five pound entry fee into the pot, assuming that a Christian Pastor would not be allowed to hold the Spear of Lugh, and become the Druidic Bard, but it would be fun to perform for a large gathering of Druids nonetheless.

In the late afternoon, a ritual was held. They formed a circle and gave thanks for the events of the year, for the giving of the harvest, for the gentle breezes, for the warmth of the sun, and for the rains. They laughed about the rains, because floods had happened all across the UK that year. They called to the East, South, West, and North, but nothing in their gathering required a person to declare allegiance to Pagan gods or goddesses. It was simply a remembrance, and celebration of life. A few of us from the missions trip joined the circle, and gave thanks with them.

In the early evening, while the sun was still fairly high in the sky the eisteddfod began. The eisteddfod was the competition of musicians and poets. The current holder of the Spear of Lugh, the first Bardic champion of the games, and a leader of the Druid Network sat as judges. The crowd gathered in the circle of flags, and faced the stage. Poets recited, and musicians sang - some quite professionally, and others joyously in need of a shepherd's crook, or a final buzzer. Much like a church talent contest it had a wide range of skills.

When my turn came, I sang a song about a Gargoyle. I wrote it in response to seeing the cathedrals in the UK some years before. Its theme was that of a mysterious message long forgotten by people, despite the fact that they walk under its shadow every day - a bit like the Gospel itself. Treeman, and Spacegirl thought that I most certainly would be the winner, even though we had been bantering in good jest about who was going outperform whom.

In the end Treeman won, and our little cadre of Pagan friends felt I got shafted. I smiled knowing that a Christian Pastor holding the Spear of Lugh for a year would be a weird experience.

Later that night we sat around the fire with our new Druid friends. People were drinking, and songs were sung, stories told, and poems recited. Everyone got involved, and we laughed, and sometimes we cried, and somehow our little Christian troupe felt strangely at home.

In the morning Paul was still sitting by the fire. He kept it burning all night as the tradition warranted. Paul had been the winner of the Spear of Lugh and the Bard for the previous year. I learned that Paul was a Druid, and a Mormon. He shared how he had been a Christian minister at one time, and that I had encouraged him to return to prayer, and to considering ministry once again. I smiled, and wondered how a person could be a Mormon, a Christian Minister and a Neo-Pagan Druid. He smiled, and I am sure he wondered how an Evangelical Christian Pastor could hang out at the Lammas Games.

As we left the Lammas Games to travel to our next location we considered how this event would change our reading of the New Testament. We were among the few people in America who would read the writings of St. Paul, and know exactly how he felt when he spoke of struggling over eating meat offered to idols, and dealing with the celebration of Pagan holydays. Paul the Apostle lived in a Pagan world, and if only for just a few days - so did we.

Beyond the Pall (Part 7): A Day with Dennis

It was October in Salem. It was now eight months since my friend the Witch had died. It was also the season when the occult trade took on a decidedly more noticeable place in the marketing strategies of our fair city. Our small city of 40,000 people hosts twelve or thirteen withcraft shops, and the windows were brimming with occult wares like toy stores stocked for the Christmas rush.

In the ninth October of ministry during Salem's month long Haunted Happenings events, we now had over a hundred volunteers. The members of our own small church, interns from a prophetic school of ministry, groups from other churches in the area, musicians, and people who travelled from as far away as California joined us to "do the stuff" in our wildly fun city during this season in which families visited to celebrate the costume season, and spiritual seekers came from distant lands to pursue an alternative spirituality.

I taught classes on understanding Neo-Paganism to people who visited to do evangelism in our unique gentle style. We held events specifically aimed at offering fun, yet significant experiences to visiting tourists. We served free hot cocoa on the streets, and provided seven days of live music on the city's largest outdoor stage which we paid for, and sponsored and ran.

During this unbelievably busy season Dennis joined us from rural mid-state New York, and stayed at our house for a week. We prayed together. We practiced the ancient art of scripture meditation called Lectio Divina. We wandered around town and visited some of the Witches I knew, and I taught Dennis what I had learned over the last 13 years of studying, and befriending Witches.

Dennis had come with expectations of discovering a new way to do evangelism after having felt ineffective over most of the course of his 23 years as a Christian. The year before he heard about our outreach in Salem, MA, and his heart had been stirred to visit us.

One afternoon Dennis and I were doing Dream Interpretation (pretending to be like Daniel of the Bible) at the church. As we were interpreting dreams, a man in a long black cape, and some convincing looking vampire fangs entered and patiently waited for us to conclude our session. Vlad was a gothic magician working in the city. He had visited our church once before, and he and I frequently spoke on the street. When we were done, Vlad asked if I could visit one of the local Witches, who had become quite frustrated, and was apparently in some state of frenzy that day.

"Pastor Phil, he respects you, and I am sure he will listen to you." Vlad said.

When we were free, Dennis and I made our way to try and help this professional Witch who was working his way toward burnout. I mentioned to Dennis that this had now become a fairly regular event, especially during the busy Halloween season. Dennis was processing this information, which even to myself was a bit bizarre, but to Dennis there was no mental file folder in which to place these strange facts.

Unfortunately, we could not reach this Witch in his shop on our little journey down the street. So we let it be known we were making a friendly call, and went on our way. As we left the store, we were met by another local Pagan shop owner who asked me if I would help bring some peace between some feuding business owners.

"Could you do a miracle?" He asked.

"Sure, what's going on?" I asked in return.

He told of the two business owners: one who ran a haunted house, and another who ran a Witch shop. They were at odds with one another over what he thought was fairly petty issues.

"It would be better for business for all of us if they could get along," he said.

I told him I would give it a try, and as we walked away Dennis laughed with wonder and said, "Two different Pagans have asked for your help and counsel for their friends in the last 20 minutes. This is incredible!"

Dennis spoke to our church on Sunday morning, and this event became one of the highwater marks of his week. The experience was weird and wonderful, and Dennis helped me remember once again for perhaps the thousandth time that my life has become weird and wonderful in the last few years.

Belief and Being: The problem of communicating our faith

This is the SynchroBlog post for Tuesday, September 25th. The subject is Paganism and Christianity

These are some preliminary thoughts on a subject which I want to study further. I theorize that it may have ramifications for our society at large, whether as a response to postmodern thought, or perhaps even as a response to more general humanistic, or materialistic trends in popular culture. Yet, my consideration of this topic relates directly to the difficulties of cross culture communication between Evangelical Christianity, and Neo-Paganism. At this point I am merely theorizing, and do not have either trend studies and statistics to document, or scholarship resources to act as a guide.

Belief and Being: The problem of communicating our faith

Belief as defined by evangelical Christianity is based primarily in a combination of confidence in an unseen Other, and an eschatalogical hope. This source of faith (faith and belief being used interchangeably here) is otherly, as is the object, and the goal.

"He who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him."

The dual parts of this definition for faith define it as: 1) confidence in the Unseen Other, and 2) a future eschatalogical hope. This model of defining faith is a repetition from the first verse of Hebrews 11.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

The writer of Hebrews, who gives us the clearest definition of faith clearly outlines the dual nature of this critical trait of the Christian character. Faith looks ahead to the future, and faith looks behind the curtain of human experience into the realm of the unseen. Even the most modern definitions of faith (such as those described by Francis Schaeffer or Josh McDowell), which rely upon perceivable facts to determine unseen realities are left with the difficult balance that faith which can be perfectly proven is not faith at all, but simply intellectual deduction.

"For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?"

"For we walk by faith, not by sight"

The fact that Evangelical Christian belief is rooted in a description of an Unseen Other (God), and in a future hope helps to disconnect human emotion from discussions about belief. Evangelical belief is not aimed at self, but at Another. It is not hinged upon a current condition, but is looking forward to a distant and glorious hope. Evangelical belief systems do not define the Christian, but the God in Whom the Christian believes. It does not define the current condition of Christian character, but the eschatalogical hope. Even when the Evangelical speaks of understanding themselves, it may be described as understanding how God (the Unseen Other) sees us in a future perfected state. In this operation of Evangelical faith, belief is potentially disconnected from the present reality of one's character, condition, and sensibility. Even at best Evangelical belief defines who a person will be, and less who they currently are. It is personally descriptive of becoming, more than of being.

Furthermore belief is attached to an immediately accessible, but continuously ongoing process of change.

"Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord."

Evangelical belief is connected to the triad of spiritual tranformations: justification, sanctification, and glorification. Belief accompanies change, and is expected to travel together to the end with personal transformation as its companion.

These characteristics of evangelical belief are a cause for celebration by its adherants, and are discussed with ease. Past failures are overlooked, current desperate conditions are seen as temporary and even hold seeds of beneficial transformation. Pain is eased by hope, and the only solid enemy of faith becomes personal doubt.

Yet for those whose belief is not based in the unseen, and the eschatalogical model of Evangelical Christianity, belief may take on a far more personally invested role.

Within popular culture we are commonly told that we must believe in ourselves. Eschatalogical hope is useless in the world of acheivement. The Unseen Other potentially offers us a source of help, but even that help is defined as serving to bring fulfillment to a more immediate present. Belief is sourced in self, and working to fulfill the moment. Even unseen and futuristic beliefs are discovered by a Kierkegaardian "leap of faith." Personal investment into one's belief is all that exists for some people. Even faith in God is come to by the activity of stepping out beyond oneself.

This self based belief is personal and naturally - self defined. It comes by means of that which is seen, or has been experientially defined. It is an existential reality, and therefore gives definition to one's being. As a culmination of life experiences it defines a person. It is who they are. This belief is less about becoming, and is almost completely about being.

Within the Neo-Pagan movement there are people whose belief systems are accessed by ethnic origin - most popularly, Celtic, Native American and Nordic mythologies in the U.S. Belief systems are defined by ethnicity, and are therefore clearly associated to being. Other Neo-Pagans attach themselves to myths or totemic guides which relate to character traits they find in themselves, and further define their beliefs by their sense of being. Though traces of the evangelical definition of belief in the unseen, or in a future hope may be found in Pagan belief systems, it does not hold the same power to disconnect one's beliefs from one's current condition. A challenge to beliefs is the same as a challenge to self, and an attack on one's legitimacy of being.

As Evangelical Christians, we will regularly be faced with communicating our faith, and consequently challenging the faith of others whose faith defines who they are. Their beliefs are personal, because they are the culmination of life experiences. These differences in the source, and direction of faith create tension in communication of belief systems between the Evangelical Christian and the Neo-Pagan. Evangelical Christianity has the call to proclaim its faith. It is therefore necessary for the Christian to understand that others may receive challenges to their beliefs as attacks against their being. We may well find ourselves in debate contests between those whose faith defines their being, when we think that beliefs are less personal and rooted in a hopeful becoming. For another faith is a personal journey defined by who they have become, and now are. My Evangelical definition of faith tells me it is less personal.

For the Calvinist or Reformed Christian even their faith may not be their own. We did not come to it ourselves, but its source is Him Who gave it. Does this depersonalize belief even further? Personally, I am not a Calvinist, but then perhaps my sense of missiology is partly to blame.

I do wonder if perhaps I have something to learn from the person whose beliefs radically and personally define their being. Could it be that I need to find a balance between a faith describing my becoming, and a faith describing my sense of being? Perhaps, but the practical question is, "How does this inform the discussion of my beliefs with others?"

Interpreting By Day What God Speaks By Night

My friend Steve Maddox told me he was setting up outreach events at Borders Books. He arranged to offer free dream interpretation, and would spend the afternoon at Borders talking to people about their dreams.

I thought to myself, "I can do that."

Over the years people would share their dreams with me, and then ask what I thought they might mean. Often I would be rather dumbfounded that they asked, because any dream which had some sense of divine meaning (which certinaly is not all of them!) seemed so obvious to me. If dream interpretation was something which came natural to me, perhaps it was a gift - like Daniel who was able to interpret dreams better than all the kings magicians and astrologers.

Five years earlier I had been at a pastor's conference. Ed Silvoso was the main speaker, and I happened to sit with him at breakfast one morning of the conference. Ed and I talked. I told him my story: how I moved to Salem, Massachusetts from California to plant a church, how I had studied about Neo-Paganism, and how I had come to know some of the Witches in our city as friends. Ed remarked that Daniel was assigned the position as the chief of the occultists in Babylon by the king, because he did "the stuff" better than they did. Daniel was the head pastor of the Witches, he said.

After breakfast Ed spoke at the morning session. He retold my story to the conferencees, and told a room full of over 500 of my peers that I was a pastor to the Witches in Salem, like Daniel was a pastor to the Witches in Babylon. He spoke in a prophetic tone, the kind which only comes from Pentecostals.

Until recently I did not realize how much these two stories have merged into one long, wild tale.

I am convinced that my friends who are involved in the occult yearn as deeply for the graceful power which comes from God's good hand as I do. Healing, miracles, and prophetic utterances of promise and grace are things they want for their own lives just as much as I do. Of course, their pursuit of these things has taken a different path than my own, but perhaps like Daniel, there is power in my journey with Jesus, which can speak gracefully into their lives.

I thought about interpreting dreams like my friend Steve was doing at Borders Books as I was preparing for the month long Halloween season in Salem, and I decided it was time to give this a try.

We made up our signs. We put out our tents. People began to stand in line, just like they do every year we set out our ministry tents.

One evening close to Halloween itself, a young man in an elegant, long black ceremonial cape stood in line with his friends. I had trained a few people to interpret dreams that year, and was taking a break from the tent, and keeping the line outside the tent door happy. The caped man and I began to talk. He discovered I was a pastor, and we discussed the differences between his Pagan path, and my Christian worldview in friendly terms. For the most part I asked questions, and he answered them. He believed the spiritual realm was a helpful, friendly place. If he asked for guidance and help it would not lead him astray.

After talking for some time, he asked about the dream interpretation, and wondered if I interpreted dreams. I told him I did. He told me his dream.

He and his friends were in Red Rock, Colorado. It is a New Age "hot spot," a natural amphitheater, and beautiful concert venue. After some time of being there, black helicopters came racing over the hills, and began to shoot at he and his friends. Some of them died. Others were severly wounded. He and one other friend were able to escape into nearby caves, and hide from the helicopters. Then the dream ended.

"What do you think this means?" he asked.

I looked at him, and paused simply because my response was one of importance. Then I said, "The spiritual realm is not always benign, sometimes it is malignant and harmful."

The young man gasped out loud. His eyes opened wide, and he said, "You are so right!"

I had not thrown Bible verses at him to prove from a scriptural standpoint that demons existed, and spiritual deception was real. This was a young man who had studied religions, and understood many of the basics of Christianity. He had rejected the Christianity he was familiar with, and adopted another religious view, but his rejection of the Bible did not mean that he rejected all spiritual voices. He took stock in his own dreams, and that evening his dreams and my Christian worldview met.

Where he would not listen to the Bible, he would listen to his dreams, and the God Whom I believe wrote the words of scripture had visited his head by night.

Since that evening I have wondered how many non-Christians are visited by God in the night. After four seasons of interpreting dreams I have discovered that there are more people visited by God than I can possibly know. Perhaps He comes in dreams, perhaps in life experiences, or perhaps in words of power and grace. He visits them by night, and I believe that He waits for us to help interpret the wild variety of those visitations by day. I also believe that He is giving us the charisma to do so, and to speak prophetically into their lives.

I have had Witches call me late at night to ask my advice, and guidance in times of trouble, but I do not think that I am anything special. I believe that there are more Daniels out there. There are more pastors to the people who are not found in our churches, but are still looking for God's guiding voice to speak into their lives.

Greetings from the Fringe

Here we are in Edinburgh Today. I'm sitting in a pub with wireless access near High Street where the action is centered in this combination of over half a diozen festivals which occur in August. My city of Salem could learn a lot from this larger city of Edinburgh, Scotland on how to create a festival - or a series of them over month.

We are on a recon mission to see who we might crash The Fringe in the future. This is one of those locations from which someone could reach the world. Great city - great festival - tons of opportunity to present the Gospel in unique ways.

Josh on Freedom, Witches, and Christianity

Josh has been on a book reading assignment which I gave him some time back. I asked him to blog on this book written by a Pagan about Paganism. Back in April he posted an insight about Freedom as foundation search in both Paganism and Christianity. I think it's worth a read - check it out.

Beyond the Pall (Part 3): Fellowshiping with Darkness?

Should I have said that I would pray about it? Should I have asked for advice from my ministry peers, and considered their wisdom first? Should I have weighed out the factors, and considered how it might look to other Christians? I don't know. But I did do what I usually do. I saw a door crack open, and rushed through it headlong.

"I would love to teach a workshop!"

It was set in motion, and I, an evangelical Pastor was headed to being one of the workshop presenters at a festival with 1,500 Pagans. In turn she hoped to give my name to some national coordinators, and wanted to see if she could get me connected at a national level, taking my message on the road.

It was the end of my friend's memorial service. My friend the Witch had died, and I became a larger part of the lives of his friends who were left behind. Speaking at his service, I hailed back to the Celtic Christians, and referred to the Thin Places where Heaven meets earth. The death of a friend is a Thin Place, because it blindingly reminds us of our own mortality, and captures our fears, and our hopes, our joys, and our sorrows in one anarchic clash, and we meanwhile squint in the light of eternity. I ended my short message by calling everyone to consider making their own lives a Thin Place where people could capture Heaven through interacting with us. It was not a Gospel message, but it was one rooted in the source of my faith, and it reverberated gently among the Pagans in attendance that night. You see, I am convinced that what we give people is often indicative of where we are headed. If we show them heaven by treating them graciously, then it is heaven which is flowing from our hearts. On the other hand, if we give people Hell by treating them poorly, that speaks for itself. I was encouraging people to live in such a way as to give away pieces of Heaven.

After the memorial I worked on developing a workshop idea for this Pagan festival. Over the next couple weeks this is what developed:

The Circle and The Cross Talk:  Re-visioning Pagan/Christian Relationships

"Looking back to the Caesars, and to the Burning Times misconceptions and urban myths have had deadly results for both Pagans and Christians.  In our own times, though mild in comparison, Pagans have been on the receiving end of the religious persecution.  Some have chosen to remain in the broom closet, and others have faced the struggle head on - sometimes to bitter disappointment with family, friends, and work associates.  This workshop is designed as a deeper look into the worldview differences between Christian and Neo-Pagan thought with a focus upon deconstructing, and re-visioning some of the beliefs which cause the greatest pain.  Come learn to navigate this battlefield of philosophical tension. Topics of frustration to be covered include judgment, conversion, spiritual dissonance, and sexuality."

I am going to be giving a workshop discussing Heaven and Hell, Salvation, Spiritual Warfare, and Sex from a Biblical perspective at a Pagan gathering, and people are excited about it. Someone pinch me and wake me up.

Paul spoke of his love for the Jews. I have this same deep appreciation, and love for Neo-Pagans. Over the last 12 years of getting to know them, I have learned that this much-maligned group is filled with beautiful people. In our Christian tendency to reduce every person to simply a sinner, we sometimes lose sight of the imago dei which simmers gently in the every person. In our tendency to demonize cultural and religious groups we do not understand, we sometimes loose sight of legitimate critiques they may have against our own culture, and our ways. I have found my Neo-Pagan friends to be among the brightest, and the most concerned, and also the ablest critics of our own Christian culture. Yet, here I was being accepted as a voice of legitimacy on their own turf, and I am a man of the cloth they choose not to weave their garments from.

Did this support the old adage that it is not what you say, but how you say it? Has my work in deconstructing, and redefining Christian doctrine missionally for alternative spiritualities had its effect in making me a more gentle Christian to those I really loved? Had I found a way to express Jesus to people who seemed to have no problem with Him, but struggled mightily with His followers? Perhaps it was simpler than that. Perhaps it was that when my friend died, I showed myself true - as a friend to him, and to his friends, and did so without worry of whether my reputation would be sullied by hanging out with Witches.

Perhaps I am actually compromising my faith, as my detractors warn, or I am being subtlely deceived by the wiles of the devil, and moving into unprotected territory where I would be subject to the devil's attacks and deceptions. One pastor had suggested as much when he asked me the rather sophmoric question, "Have you ever heard the term fellowshiping with darkness?"

"Uh, yeah..." 'Gee, It's not like I haven't been a Pentecostal Pastor for 20 years,' I thought.

"Well what does it mean to you?" He querried deeper, as though he was trying to mine some deep-seated unrepentant condition from my heart.

I wanted to answer, "It looks like sitting in a room with a bunch of cowards screaming at demons, while people who need Jesus are out on the streets during Halloween. That looks like fellowshiping with darkness to me," but I held my sarcasm, and remained gentle before his inquisition. Halloween in Salem is a month long, and while we made friends, served the community, and shared our faith, this man had critiqued our outreach projects, while he sat in holy huddles inside the safety of the church.

I guess if Halloween outreaches have been a problem, teaching at a Pagan Festival is going to be a bigger problem for some people, but for now I will prepare, and see what the upcoming months moving toward the conference bring.

As I draw deeper into the culture of these people I love, will I find deeper expressions of the imago dei? Will I find people earnestly seeking authentic spirituality? Will I find other Christians who are willing to join me in a quest to share Shalom? or will I find myself fellowshiping with darkness, turmoil, and succumbing to deception? I think I know the answer, but who can read the map of the untrod paths of the an adventure yet untried?

Only one Person can read that future which does not yet exist.

First Podcast From "God: for People Who Hate Church" - Jim Henderson (Friday, May 4th)

You can find the first Podcast from our conference here in Salem, MA at our church website.

Jim Henderson pushes some boundaries of our thinking about church life, and incarnational ministry. If you like Jim, this may be an opportunity to here him speak more freely than you have heard before. Heck, when you speak at a conference entitled "God: for People Who Hate Church" it 's a bit difficult to get much more provocative than that! So, Jim says he felt pretty free to speak up. Check it out!

Beyond the Pall (Part 2) at Relevant

A previous post Beyond the Pall (Part 2): Standing Between the Worlds has been published at Relevant Magazine online, and just came up today - 5/2/07.

Here is the link to the article at Relevant.

The original without the editing is found here.

Check it out at Relevant, and leave a comment. I am hoping to create a series based upon my growing interaction with the Pagan community, and have a larger audience like the readers of Relevant follow it. I have presented the idea to the editors of Relevant, and they are willing to look at it an article at a time right now.

Beyond the Pall (Part 2): Standing Between the Worlds

The funeral passed for my friend the Witch. The weeks following were filled with strange conversations, and changing relationships.

I sat down with small groups of Witches gathered together over the common love of their friend. I hugged more Witches on some days than whole mega-churches will in their entire existence. I saw the Witchcraft community struggling with the issue of respecting the dead. There were some who had seen my friend as a threat, and were taking their shots at him now that he was dead.

"Do you think he is in Hell?" I was asked this question by more than one person. His Pentecostal mother cried each time we talked over the phone. Even a Pagan asked me that fearful Hell question. Believing that the mercy of God is greater than we can imagine, knowing that the thief on the cross made a last-second dive for home plate, and slid in under the tag, I replied that God is the judge of all things beyond the grave, and I know that He loved our friend more than any of us ever could.

He was buried 75 miles away from Salem, and many people in the Witchcraft community could not attend. On Friday the 13th, a memorial service was arranged in Salem. This was the first notable Witch to die since the Neo-Pagan revival had made its way to our little New England burg in the early 70's.

The organizers of the memorial service needed a sound system. Our church had one. We offered it. So Jesus provided the sound system for the memorial of a famous Witch. I was asked to speak, and wondered how that might be received by a room full of Pagans.

Friday the 13th arrived. Jeff, our assistant pastor took the sound system down to the Old Town Hall. I arrived later, and helped set it up. Our close friend who was leading the service sang out a chorus from the musical "Wicked,"

"And Goodness knows
The Wicked's lives are lonely
Goodness knows
The Wicked die alone
It just shows when you're Wicked
You're left only
On your own

Yes, Goodness knows
The Wicked's lives are lonely
Goodness knows
The Wicked cry alone
Nothing grows for the Wicked
They reap only
What they've sown"

"Do you think this song is okay? Should I sing that last phrase, 'They reap only what they've sown?'" Our friend the Witch asked us.

I responded with a slightly twisted, but obvious smirk, "Of course you should sing it. It is from the Bible after all."

"But do you think it's too much? Because I think I like it."

"I am sure it will be fine."

Our singing friend was the main speaker. He was nervous. He asked for advice about his "sermon." We all laughed that he called it a sermon. Jeff and I remarked to one another how pastoral he appeared. He may not have looked like a Christian pastor, but he was caring for people in his unique Neo-Pagan way.

Later that evening we arrived for the memorial. The room was filled with people strange and common. Black is the color of choice for these events, but this was blacker than usual. Some were dressed in ceremonial robes, some in street clothes, and some in wild neo-medieval black leather garb. People gathered in small clans, and the room was abuzz with whispers, greetings between distant friends being reacquainted, quiet laughter, and tears.

I made my way around the room meeting new people, and saying hi to recent acquaintances and old friends. I counted four Christians in the room of somewhat over 100: three from our church, and a Quaker.

After a time of mingling, people were called to their seats. The memorial was decidedly witchy. A small table of occult implements sat front and center. The elements of earth, air, fire and water were called upon, and the spirits of the north, east, south, and west were invoked. I was reminded of a once popular Christian worship song which called to the directions of the compass. I thought to myself that the same Pentecostal churches which enjoyed the song would be the least comfortable of all Christians in this strange setting.

The group of four Witches running the service began to introduce the people who were asked to speak. They would simply say, "and now we will hear from John." I was last in the order.

People shared poetry, stories of their friendship, and writings from the Book of Shadows which was written by the deceased. This Book of Shadows held poems of joy, and sorrow, of doubt, and struggle, moments of calling out to God for help in this troubled world, and honest descriptions of being broken and human.

The Quaker man stepped up. He began, "An Atheist, a Witch, and a Quaker went to Transylvania." The room roared at this joke introduction. He held well over 100 people enraptured with his hilarious stories of their real travels together.

My singing friend approached the mic to introduce me, but he said more than, "and now we will hear from Phil." He called the Witches in the room to remember a time some 15 years previous when the Pagan and the Evangelical Christian communities were aggressively antagonistic to one another, and remarked that those days were past. Then he credited me for the transformation, and openly called the Witches in Salem to follow my example. I rubbed my eyes, and doubted that our little church was as influential as he suggested. He spoke my name. I stood and walked to the platform to the sound of applause.

An Evangelical Christian Pastor being applauded by a room full of Witches; my little world was weird, but it exponentially increased in peculiarity that moment.

"These are the thinnest of times, when the veil between the world we live in and the heavens becomes transparent...." I hailed back to the early Christian Celts and their theology of Thin Places - times and locations where heaven and earth meet as I described the experience we all have during the loss of loved ones. But I wondered who really stood at this uncomfortable junction between the worlds. Was it those who lost their friend? or was it I who had made these new friends in a world so unlike my own?

A Question Following the Article in Relevant Magazine Online

The following letter was sent with a touch of concern. It was sent by e-mail after the writer read the article "Beyond the Pall", which was published in Relevant Magazine. The concerns listed in the article are not uncommon for people who are reading about someone who is actively making friends with the Neo-Pagan community, and sharing the love of Christ. I asked if I could respond to the e-mail openly on my blog, and he said yes. The writer will remain anonymous, because I offered to post it that way, and it was accepted on those terms.

The questioning e-mail will be in italics, and my response in plain text.


hi pastor phil,

my name is P... and i just finished reading your article on relevant magazine's website. i also looked at some of the stuff you wrote on your blog, but not much.

first, to begin, i just want to let you know that i am not writing this email out of judgement or contempt or anything, and i really really hope that i don't appear that way. really, i just want to share my thoughts and hear yours, nothing more.

i've just been really confused by what you wrote about. i understand your point, about how self-seeking pastors and corrupt leaders of super duper churches are not men of God (I also read what you wrote about redefining "heresy," and i would agree to an extent.) I'm just a bit confused cause the article does seem to lean another way also... that the practicing Satanist, was, well, respected by God.

Again, I do not want to be on the offensive or anything, I just want to understand your view better (not to make judgements, but just for my own understanding). I completely agree with you about your criticism of the really selfish and corrupt church leaders who everybody naively admires, yet, the article also offers praise to the Satanist.

This is what I have been struggling with in my personal search for truth. And this has been very troubling for me: the overwhelming message of love of Jesus vs. the nature of God. I mean, yes, Jesus said lots of things about loving people nomatter what, yet, he was also surprisingly ascerbic when dealing with the devil and evil. I mean, the first and greatest commandment is to love God, and I'm just very confused as to how a "selfish" God would honor a man who practiced voodoo and followed Satan.


The point of the article was not to say that one person was respected by God, and another disrespected, but rather to show the strange contrast from our human perspective. A dark individual who was respected by other people for the help he offered them was contrasted with a supposedly good man who has a growing evil reputation for hurting those around him. I simply ended the article with a question asking what God, Who sees into the heart, might see which we do not.

The same man who died was far more complex than could be described by the short story. I had known him for many years. We sat up late at night and discussed Heaven and Hell, we saw The Passion together, his story of being abused by Christian churches was outlined by a letter in this post. I have heard him describe himself as someone who loved Jesus, and disliked Christianity.

I understand the concern you have about God respecting, or honoring someone who lives in disobedience to Him, but I suppose I might look at the issue from a different angle than you are seeing it. I do not think that God respects one person over any other person, for the simple fact that all of us are messed-up, broken individuals.

Now I am not quite sure what you mean by a "selfish God," but it seems to me that the God I serve would give His Son for those who had rejected Him. It also seems that He loves that person as much as He loves anyone else. I would expect that He would want me to do the same. This would be the fulfillment of the command at the end of Matthew 5, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you...."

I see the anger of Jesus focused on hypocritical religious leaders. Do you think perhaps that He might feel the same way today? I tend to think so, and the reason I believe this is because our lack of compassion and understanding gives creedance to people's biases against Christianity. They see Jesus as loving toward the sinner, the sick, and the broken; and angry toward the hypocrites who thought that they could define righteousness by their own terms. I sometimes wonder if perhaps the non-Christian world understands the anger of God better than the Christian world does. They are mad at hypocrites, and accepting of sinners. Whereas we often are mad at sinners, and accepting of hypocrites.

By the way, it may be of interest for you to know that LeVeyan Satanism is most often a form of atheistic hedonism, and Satan is viewed as a personification of self, or the natural forces of the universe, and not as a literal being to be worshiped.

I mean, paul and other new testament writers also say a lot about Satan and pagans and they are definitely not supportive. I don't think I'm sayiing that you were "supportive" of Satanists, but it seems as if you are saying that the Satanist priest was a better man than the selfish pastor. Like, yes, the pastor is hypocritical and everything, but again, I just don't see how God would tolerate honoring a Satanist. The Old Testament is all about how God hates evil and the drastic measures that he goes to. There are many really serious passages in the New Testament about those that reject Christ and follow Satan. I just feel like, in a sense, you are saying that it's ok.

The New Testament writers did say a lot about Pagans. In fact, all the Gentile world was Pagan. Paul became "as a Jew" when with the Jews, and "as without the law" when he was with those who were without the law (i.e. Pagans). What the New Testament has to say about Pagans is found in Paul's advice on eating meat offered to idols, and the celebrating of holydays. Otherwise, it was a fact of life that Christians were sitting down with good old fashioned Pagans at meals, and even during Pagan celebrations, because that was the way of life in the Roman Empire.

or maybe there is a really fine line between showing unconditional love to whomever seeks it and actually approving of an alternate world view?

Now this I think highlights the difference in how we think. I do not believe that there is a fine line between showing unconditional love, and approving of an alternate worldview. I must love unconditionally, and I must desire truth fully. It is not either/or. When I love unconditionally, I do not assume that every moment requires that I rebuke someone for their sin. I do not think that loving unconditionally allows me to disrespect anyone, and for heaven's sake not after they have died! The post written by another Christian friend of my Witch friend who died, outlines the unbelievable abuse which many Pagans have received at the hands of the church. I will not be another abuser, but I choose to be an outreached hand of love to a group of people who are often feared, and miosunderstood by the church.

What many people do not realize is that while they sit on the sidelines critiquing my relationships with the Pagan community, I have shared the love of Jesus, and the beliefs of Christendom thousands of times to a people group which most Christians will never do anything more than rebuke - and that's only if they are exceptionally bold.


thanks in advance for your response, i've sent way too many emails that have not been responded too.

- P...

You're welcome. I am hoping that there will be a growing number of people who overcome their fear of those in the occult, and just learn to treat them with the same respect which we give to every other person.

gwyn dy fyd,
Phil

A Letter from a Witch's Friend

The following letter was written by a friend of my friend Shawn, who died last month. It speaks for itself, and says something about the problems Christians sometimes create through judgmentalism, and fear of being defiled by "the unbelieving," and those who do not live up to our lifestyle expectations.

"Phil,

You don't know me and I have never been to your church. I knew Shawn Poirier since we were teenagers and I remember his zeal for church. I used to sleep over his house and we would pray all night. I remember earnestly studying the Bible with him, going on retreats, worshiping together in church.

I also remember the way church people judged Shawn and his family, spread lies about him, talked behind his back and accused him of things that were not true. I remember walking into a church with Shawn and watching as the minister stopped his sermon and then announced that "a spirit of homosexuality" had just walked into the room. Shawn was crushed. I remember watching him try again and again to find community, acceptance and love in church....all to no avail. The church really poured on the fire after he became a witch but I made it a point to publicly give him a hug and tell him that he would always be my friend. This would freak out my family but I felt that it was important that Shawn know that not every church person was judging him. I attended Shawn's wake but had to leave early. I was sad not to see church people there, but I tried to brush off my feelings. Imagine my shock when that Sunday I heard a pastor publicly preach that Shawn was in hell and standing naked before an angry god. This was coming from one of the churches that had hurt Shawn. I was furious and distraught. I watched Shawn get publicly rebuked in life...I was not about to watch it happen in death, when his family was in pain. I made sure to write a letter to the pastor right then and there and I handed it to him and told him to read it before he preached his next sermon. (It was at Christian (name of church)... in New Bedford at the first of what are 3 morning services)

I wrote to Christian Day expressing my deep hurt that Shawn had died, my anger that Shawn's name was being mentioned publicly and requesting his family's decision as to how I should handle this. In my mind a public response was necessary. But Christian Day....showing incredible tolerance, grace and maturity suggested that I let it roll off of me and not let it take up my energy. He gave me the link to your church and told me shortly how you were of great assistance during this time. I wanted to therefore send you a note of thanks, that a pastor, instead of judging actually stood up and was a blessing during this time.

I can't thank you enough. You don't know me but I wanted to tell you that I appreciated your response after Shawn's death and I know that God is pleased. May God enlarge your voice so that others can hear the words of Jesus instead of the taunts of the Pharisees.

Sincerely,

Steven Thorne"

Like Stephen I wanted to fully publish the name of the church, but for the sake of exhibiting God's grace I have not. Stephen, thank you for having been a long time friend of my friend.