Help Define a Church! Open Source Christianity - try it and see if it works.

This fits in with the Emergent Church conversation we had going.  And I suppose it fits with Tony Jones' discussion about Theology after Google.  So here's the deal:  We had a discussion about finding a narrative for our wildly active, incredibly difficult to define community.  So I have told the story and asked for you help HERE.

Help us! Please. :-)

Tony Jones Honorable Mention? Holy Laughter!?

Tony Jones new book New Christians: Dispatches from the Emergent Frontier includes a reference to our conference last May: "God for People Who Hate Church." In the forward of the book he says that he visited some extremes in respect to his Emergent church experiences while writing the book. We are listed as one extreme.

The fact that we practice dream interpretation believing that God still speaks to people in their dreams today like He did throughout the scriptures, and that we are from Pentecostal origins are the reason for this mention.

Here's the quote: ""As I was working on this manuscript, I was also on the road, speaking about this content to a variety of groups. In May 2007, I visited these five events in a whirlwind of travel..."

"A Pentecostal church in Massachusetts, where I participated in a conference titled 'God for People Who Hate Church' and shared the stage with witches and druids as they reflected on how they've been treated by Christians.

The National Cathedral in Washington, D.C., where I spoke about the challenge that emergent Christianity poses to the Episcopal Church at a conference called 'Church in the Twenty-First Century'"

"Within a week, I'd gone from sitting with Pentecostals who interpret one another's dreams and break out in 'Holy Spirit laughter' to addressing collared Episcopal priests in the second largest cathedral on the continent. That's theological whiplash."


So we get the honorable mention in the forward. Or was it honorable? Maybe it was just a mention, but here's my response: Holy Laughter!? What's up with that? There may have been a few people at the conference who were into that, but as a church The Gathering does not practice that, and never has.

I suppose on one hand we are considered to be on the Frontiers of church life. That's cool. I want to live on the front edge of Christian experience as it pertains to touching our needy world, but I'd like to be accurately defined. Laughter - good. Learning to laugh in a holy manner - even better. Holy Laughter as practiced and defined by some Pentecostal Revivalists - uhm, a bit weird for me.

So Tony - Thanks for the mention, but we'll be expecting a minor retraction in the second printing bro. ;-)

Some of you will remember that I specifically asked Tony how the Emergent Conversation could better embrace the Charismatics and Pentecostals who were identifying with its values. You may also remember that I thought his answer was fair, but insufficient. Does this Holy Laughter comment perhaps hint why? Perhaps there is an assumption that all Pentecostals are whacked, and practice Holy Laughter? Perhaps there is fear of embracing emotional forms of worship expression? But wouldn't Pentecostal emotional expression be a positive move away from the post-enlightenment reliance in a solely intellectual pursuit of God? Just a thought which quite frankly I owe to some of Jeff Gentry's thoughts in his sermon today at The Gathering.

Ken Silva Calls Me Out - The Gathering as Clueless, Blind Guides

Thank You to our buddy Zaque for calling our attention to this post by anti-emergent church fellow Ken Silva. Ken is living in New Hampshire, so I will need to visit him someday soon - well, after returning from France, and the UK.

He noticed that we held our "God: For People Who Hate Church Conference" back in May and decided to respond to it, and even to link to one of the dialogues.

Now he responded to the dialogue, which can be downloaded here, with these words:

"Although these people are currently spiritually clueless they do know the repainted social gospel and theology, such as it is, of the emerging church quite well. But the tragic truth is we are not dealing with the orthodox Christian faith here. No; rather this is a mish-mash of things roughly related to Christianity which they simply pick and choose by their own existential and highly subjective feelings about what they think God might be doing.

After listening to this the discerning Christian will hear the Voice of the Great Shepherd say – “Leave them; they are blind guides.”"

You can find Ken Sliva's daitribes against anything even remotely Emergent (which tag I am not sure I fully fit) at this website. He is sure that I am part of a neo-liberal cult, and with my friends moving toward the "religious bondage of Roman Catholicism."

What do you think?

I tend to think that he has replaced Roman Catholic Bondage (whatever that is) with his own brand of theological, and practical do and don'ts which look even more like the bondage of the law than anything he berates.

I guess this post came out a couple days ago, while our missions team was returning from London, and I was bunking up at Mike and Jules' place.

Leadership as a Familial Model and Acceptance of Sinners

We had a rather interesting discussion last night at church, which moved to a discussion of homosexuality, and then to outreach among fringe people groups. We had been foraging through some follow-up from our Conference "God For People Who Hate Church."

Jim Henderson, Jay Bakker and Tony Jones all emphasized in some manner reaching out in love with no agenda, and this became a point of challenge which included wondering if there was a place in which the Gospel was being compromised in order to show acceptance to those outside the church.

As an afterthought concerning this discussion I have had some thoughts based upon a discussion with one of our members following the evening dialogue.

I believe the model of Christian leadership outlined by Paul is one of familial interaction. Nowhere are potential leaders asked to measure up to some corporate or militaristic model of leadership, rather they are expected to be family men and women, who run their family well, and peaceably. This means that way Christian leaders treat people should be like the sacrificial love and patient longsuffering we show our family members. If we really lived like this in church, I wonder if it would significantly reorganize or transform our experience and our leadership patterns?

So it Begins - God for People Who Hate Church

Hi Friends,

Our conference begins tonight. People are beginning to show up now. Karen Ward is in Town, Jim Henderson is here, Jay Bakker will be here in a couple hours. The Christian Science Monitor will be here today and tomorrow to talk to Jim henderson and I. Of course, Tony Jones is too emergent to get here when everyone else does, he'll arrive at 11pm.

So, we are off and running. For those who will be here, see you soon. If you haven't registered and want to come, you can just come as you are, and register or any of the events tonight through Sunday morning.

View our flyer for the event here.

You can also follow live blogging of the event for those who can not make it at The Gathering Blogsite.

Gwyn eich byd, White your world!
Phil

CONFERENCE TIME! God for People Who Hate Church is Here

Today, I met Agent B who flew out here form Abilene, TX. I took him around Salem, and he met real live Witches - at least five of the locals. He got a feel for our beautiful New England city, and felt the cool breezes and the warm sun of late spring. Then Don Rylander from Jackson, MS - my old buddy who was there on the first day I began pastoring a church I Carlsbad, CA 22 years ago arrived in town, and we spent some time together this evening.

Tomorrow at 7pm the event officially begins. There will be people blogging live from the conference, and you can follow their writings. The live-bloggers will be linked in the right-hand column of the church blog site. There will also be a variety of people guest blogging from the church blog.

Our guest speakers include Jay Bakker, Jim Henderson, and Tony Jones.

Guest panelists include Karen Ward, John Smulo, Ken Nelson, and Beth Maynard.

We will also hear from Lou, Jonas, and Michael on our Humanist/Christian discussion panel, and from Teri Kalgren, Suzy Wade, and Krista Grillo during our Pagan/Christian discussion.

So for the next three days you will find us at The Gathering's Blog Site.

This conference is charting some new territory for us, and we hope to discover how we might become better servants to the variety of people around us.

Gwyn eich byd!
Pastor Phil

Live Blogging from God For People Who Hate Church

May 4-6th - yep that only 3 days away! - we will provide some live blogging from our conference. Topics and themes of teachings and panel discussions will be provided by various observers. Carly Menasco, Kevin Menasco, Josh Rivera (see His blog rivera's Blog), and others will take a hand at some live commentary. If you follow the blogging at the blog site for The Gathering, you can send some questions from distant places and get involved.

If you want to find the schedule for the conference, and follow along, go to our church website and follow the link to the conference flyer. Of course, you will need to add or subtract hours to adapt to Eastern Standard Time US.

Quickie Interview with Tony Jones

God for People Who Hate Church is coming up May 4-6. Tony Jones will be one of the voices here at the event, so I asked Tony a few questions. Here are the questions, and here are Tony's answers. Of course, since he's coming to Salem, I thought I'd senstize him with a question of a Witchy nature.

Phil Wyman: I've read numerous critiques about the evangelistic effectiveness of the Emergent Conversation. Critics have suggested that Emergent is either redefining, or perhaps even doing away with the Great Commission. What's up with Emergent and evangelism? or perhaps better put, what's up with Tony Jones and his ideas about the Great Commission?

Tony Jones: Well, I'm all about making disciples, and it seem to me that was Jesus' concern, too. And that is a way of life that Jesus called people into, not simply saying a prayer, led by a guy on TV. I've even baptized some folks in my day! What I do reject is arguments about "effectiveness" of evangelization and discipleship, since that's a modern value that has been superimposed on the gospel. The gospel is not effective, it's scandalous.

Phil Wyman: Here at The Gathering in Salem, Massachusetts, we are concerned with the reputation which "church" has developed in the eyes of those who stand on the outside looking in. We are also concerned about those who have been abused by the wrong practices of churches in the recent past. Do you have suggestions for bridging this divide of offenses?

Tony Jones: I think we're accountable to God for our local incarnation of the church. You are responsible for The Gathering, I'm responsible for Solomon's Porch. Just because someone gets E Coli at a Taco Bell in California doesn't mean that you never ea[r] at a Taco Bell again (although I question the sanity of people who eat there!) -- so folks shouldn't hold it against The Gathering because other idiots have ruined other churches. People who disparage your church because of the failings of others.

Phil Wyman: You just sat down in a cafe for a bite. Someone plunks themselves down next to you. You look up and see a large man in a black cape, with an oversized silver pentacle hanging around his neck. In striking up a conversation he numerates a long list of the evils of Christendom both recent, and historical. He finishes his diatribe, and looks at you. How do you respond?

Tony Jones: I guess I ask him where is the perfect religion and how can I join? Religion is our fallible, human attempt to articulate who God is and how we relate to God. Often, we suck at that, to be sure. But Christianity is also full of earnest saints who've done great good in God's name. I'll put our saints up against our sinners anyday.


Interested in being there May 4-6, and seeing Tony in person? Check out more about the seminar at the website for the The Gathering.

God for People Who Hate Church - May Conference

Here's a quick little note on a conference we are going to be doing here in Salem May 4-6.

You got it right the name of the conference is:

God for People Who Hate Church

No joke! We are crazy enough to really do a conference with that title. Not only are we crazy enough to do that, but check out the line up!

Jay Bakker - Mr. One Punk Under God
Jim Henderson from Off-the-map.org
Listen to Jim
Tony Jones from Emergent Village

We will hold a few interesting sessions such as a dialogue with atheists, and another with some of our Pagan friends to learn what it is we do which offends the people we think we should be reaching.

We will hold an open dialogue about rethinking church, and hopefully find some unique ideas which excite our hearts.

There will be some late night movies on Friday and Saturday: Perhaps we'll check out Jesus Camp, or Frisbee: Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher

Maybe this is too radical for you. Maybe this is just what you are looking for. Anyway - You'll see more info later, and it will pop up on our church blog soon too.

Wanna join us for the conference?

Registration materials are coming out any day now, but for now e-mail us, and we will get the information to you by snail, or by ch-ee-tah-mail Pastor Phil Wyman at The Gathering

Brian McLaren, Arminius and What I'm Reading, and Why

I have not posted anything about my reading since beginning my blog, but I thought I'd go ahead and do so. I know boring, boring, boring, but then again people who read blogs are readers, and a glimpse into the reading records of another person is a glimpse into the workings of their mind.

So here is what I am reading at this moment, and why.

I am reading Brian McLaren's book "The Secret Message of Jesus." I am reading it, because I thought that since I am putting a book proposal together, I should keep up with the popular writings in the Emergent Church. That was the only reason I bought the book. Dang, that's real redemptive ain't it? I have read through to the end of the 8th chapter. It's been slow going - not because the book is a difficult read, but because I just couldn't get into it. I got to chapter 7, and 8. I read those last night, and got out the underlining pen. When I get out the underlining pen that's huge. I usually reserve the underlining for writers like Chesterton.

Brian McLaren presents some thoughts in chapter 7 and 8 which speak to my question to Tony Jones the other day about how Pentecostals and Emergent folk could fit together. Not that the answer is practically solved, but the theological considerations are in place through these chapters - well, I think they are. More reading to go. Maybe I'll say more later.

I am also slowly plucking my way through the writings of Arminius. Why? Because everyone reading theology reads Calvin. After reading Calvin, they feel that they have a lot to say about the Calvinist/Arminian debate, but I've never heard that they read Arminius. So I am at the 4th Oration of the first Volume of the Works of Arminius. I am reading them online at ccel.org - which if you do not know about, you do now, and you should go there to read classics for free at least once a month - so methinks.

I generally dislike reading passages of scripture strung together to create something like a Systematic Theology, but this is the first time I have ever been impressed by a theologian's ability to connect sciptures together in a readable and dynamic fashion. Whatever you think about Arminian doctrine as it is presented today, this guy is worth a read if you enjoy the dryness of theology.

I only read one thing I would disagree with, that would have to do with my view of the voice of God speaking to humanity today. I am more of a mystic than Arminius I suppose.

Okay, that's it for now. What are you reading? and why do you think I should I read it? or avoid reading it?

Tony Jones, Wales, and Final Thoughts on Boston Emergent Coven, uhm I mean Cohort

Okay, I did not remember to ask the question last night, but I asked by e-mail today, and yes, Tony is of Welsh heritage. Duh - Jones. My gosh, his great-grandfather was a Welsh Presbyterian Minister, and his tombstone in Minnesota is inscribed in Welsh. Dang, my Welshness is so far back, it almost connects to Llewelyn ap Gruffydd.

So Tony has one up on me there. but I speak some broken Welsh, and he doesn't know lick of it, so I've got one up on him there. I am waiting to hear his Welsh stories he is going to tell me someday, and discover how deep is his hiraeth. Then we'll bust out a pint and shout "IECHYD DA!"

Apart from that I had a great time with the Emergent Coven of 13 in Boston last night, and I will be posting some thoughts on Pentecostals, Charismatics, and Emergent. Marieke got me going on this track.

Competition Time!

The first person to tell me the most recent Prince of Wales gets a special monster link to their blog site. Hint: the answer is quite nationalistic.

13 and one half hours after posting:
Marieke from Raining Grace came up with the correct answer: Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, although she also came up with the acceptable second answer: Owain Glyndwr

Marieke is a friend of the Cymry!

Tony Jones, Emergent, Republicans, and Pentecostals

So, last night I gathered with the Boston Emergent Cohort. Cohort is a cool word, but it has a sense of irony. Are we a unit of the Roman Legion? That doesn't quite feel Emergent to me. Perhaps we are fish spawning up stream. That might be a better analogy, but not exactly a picture I want to perpetuate. Maybe we are a study group of people going through the same experiences. Hmmmmmm...that's just too laboratory sounding. Anyway the Cohort gathered because Tony Jones was in town.

It was a discussion around a table with beer, and soda. There were 13 of us I believe. Cooooool - we could have used the other C word - Coven. We even discussed using that word for the Boston group, and nobody counted to see we had the perfect coven number at the group last night. But Cohort it is.

So we discussed a number of things like liberation theology (and Carlos was there, who is finishing up his doctoral thesis on Latin America, and he's darn smart about liberation theology, because of it, but he stayed pretty quiet on that point), and we talked about how Emergent started, which I didn't know, but it made sense that it was just a group of people who got together and had the similar thoughts about how evangelical Christianity seemed kinda messed up.

A few of us asked questions, so at some point I asked mine.

The first was how Emergent and Pentecostals fit together. I know a number of Emergent leaning Pente's, and they often have a difficult time in their denominations. We, like most of the Emergent gang make fun of TV evangelism, and guys like Benny Hinn, but often with less aggression. I have wondered why we can rip on Benny as Emergents, but not on John MacArthur and his criticisms of everybody under the sun, but himself. They seem to be the same in terms of bringing unhealthy elements of Christian behavior to the church. Personally I'd rather not rip on anyone though, but if we will be fair, we should rip on 'em all.

So back to the point of the question - is there a place for Emergent and Pentecostals to meet, and fellowship? Tony's answer: "I'd be open for being part of a dialogue concerning that issue." (rough translation of actual words.)

He compared it to the dialogue with Emergent and the Traditional churches. Fair comparison, but not nearly as challenging methinks. Tony mentioned his approach to the Traditional churches was to challenge them on their authoritarian governmental structures, and the need to move toward an egalitarian balance in the church. With Pentecostalism this same challenge would be presented, and compounded by the potentially more challenging difficulty of worshiping together with the far more demonstrative style of Pentecostals, whereas the Emergent church has adapted many ancient faith elements already found in some form in Traditional settings.

My second question was similar: Is the Emergent Tent large enough to include Republicans. Tony's answer was more affirmative in this question. (I don't mean to say that the question about Pentecostals was not positive, just that it did not appear to be somehting which has as much thought, and experience behind it as this political issue.) He apparently is one of the more moderate leaning guys in Emergent, as an Independent. Everyone else who helped kick this thing off apparently was registered Democrat. Tony saw a place for Conservatives in Emergent - so James and I rubbed our little gray goatees together in a symbol of solidarity between leftist commies, and republican nazis, and that sealed the felowship of the evening. Well, except for the fact the guys went out and smoked some Nat Sherman's afterward.

Now I've got a new question. Can you be Emergent if you don't smoke?