A Response to Pagan Pride

I thought it would be nice to post a response to the Pagan Pride event. The letter below came by e-mail the day after I taught at Pagan Pride Day. As evidenced by the quality of writing, George Popham is an articulate man, and he was both funny, and challenging with his thoughts during the discussion times. He is finishing his doctoral work in religious anthropology. (I think that was the category of study - something religio-brainy like that.) So, here's George's thoughts:

Pastor Phil,

I just wanted to thank you again for the kind and thoughtful discussion you moderated at pagan pride yesterday. I was so impressed that you managed to neither soft pedal or market away the true differences of belief involved or make those differences excessively confrontational. Usually interfaith dialog between any of the, let's say, 'Abrahamic' faiths and other religions is either so diplomatic that it is dishonest about the true nature of their basic differences, or so focused on the differences that they appear as you aptly put it 'mean and judgmental' Somehow you managed to find a middle course between these extremes and I have seldom seen this done with such grace.

But but you also avoided two other mistakes (I believe) Christians commonly make in witnessing their faith. 1. You did not speak as if we non-christians had never heard this message before and 2. You did not speak to us non-christians as if we were in need of rescue. I know you likely believe we *are* in need of rescue, but that you were respectful enough to not explicitly condescend shows a good heartedness and sensitivity I am not used to encountering among evangelicals. This is important because this attitude conveys that you are aware that many non-christians are just as comfortable and assured of their beliefs as you are, and just as contented in their lives and full of spiritual hope as well. That is, we are as committed to our stuff as you are to yours. Too many Christians fail to recognize this and this tends to shut down discussion right from the start.

The sort of discussion we had yesterday is also encouraging in so far as the discourse between Christians and non-christians has become increasingly and dangerously polarized, toxic and political. That you have drawn such fire for even speaking with neo-pagans is yet another perplexing proof of it. It just seems so un-Christ-like to condemn you for ministering to neo-pagans, after all, that is exactly what Christ would have done. If there is to be any peace at all and if the political fiber of our Country and Constitution is to hold together we need to continually remind each other that whatever we may believe we are NOT enemies.

Christian Day was speaking with my wife after the discussion yesterday and told her how kind, generous and basically samaritan-like you and your people have been in the Salem community. And in this respect I think we have at least one common belief: argument and discussion is worthwhile and even fun, but it is far more important to persuade by one's example of loving kindness.

The whole thing made Debbie and I feel great. We've been talking about it quite a lot. We will likely never share your congregation's religious beliefs, but we hope you will consider us allies all the same.

Peace,

George Popham and Debbie Fields Popham

Wow,

George's words were encouraging, and of course I can think of them as allies in a common cause. What do you think?

A Christian Presenter at Pagan Pride?!

Yesterday was the Pagan Pride event in North Andover, MA. I had been invited to give a workshop at the event. Matt the Pirate, and his wife Mary the Goth Theologian, John the Master Dream Interpreter (though he denies it), and The Prof. Carlos Z. joined me for the event.

I hope to develop a team of Christians who can hang out at such events, and actually be good examples - instead of silly, judgmental, and icky. "Icky" is a theological term, you know.

We want to do things like Dream Interpretation, training in Neo-Pagan/Christian relationships, and simple friendship development to show that we can all live in this world together without fighting like cats. Of course, Neo-Pagans and the kind of Christians who like hanging out with me have something in common - we are like cats, herding us remains an impossibility.

Now the day previous I visited one of the stores of a Salem Witch who was one of the presenters at the festival as well. Teri said to me in passing, "Did Carole tell you about the one rule of the workshops? They need to be performed skyclad." Teri did not flinch a bit when saying this. Neither did I.

"That's cool." I replied.

So, the day of the event 5 of us drove out to North Andover from Salem at 7:30 in the morning. We arrived at the event early, and did so purposely. We put our hands to the work of setting up. Our plan was to make ourselves indispensable, which is really just another way of saying that we were going to be servants. We set up tents, we set up the Children's area, moved picnic benches, set up signs, and Matt the Pirate helped the blacksmith haul anvils and organize the smithy's area.

Once the vendors were set up, and the people began to arrive, we milled around. I greeted old friends from Salem, and made a few new friends. Matt the Pirate hung out with the Blacksmith; John, Mary, and Carlos got to know the festival, which is a mid-sized Pagan festival with live music, about 20-25 crafters, an early evening ritual, and a dozen workshops from morning to mid-afternoon.

My workshop was from 12:15 to 1:15. We ate pumpernickel bread and cheese, passed out flyers for the workshop, and joined the drum circle during the time between finishing set up, and the workshop.

The description of the workshop was this:

The Circle and The Cross Talk:  Re-visioning Pagan/Christian Relationships

Looking back to the Caesars, and to the Burning Times misconceptions and urban myths have had deadly results for both Pagans and Christians.  In our own times, though mild in comparison, Pagans have been on the receiving end of the religious persecution.  Some have chosen to remain in the broom closet, and others have faced the struggle head on - sometimes to bitter disappointment with family, friends, and work associates.  This workshop is designed as a deeper look into the worldview differences between Christian and Neo-Pagan thought with a focus upon deconstructing, and re-visioning some of the beliefs which cause the greatest pain.  Come learn to navigate this battlefield of philosophical tension. Topics of frustration to be covered include judgment, conversion, spiritual dissonance, and sexuality.

At 12:05 we made our way to the workshop location. The previous workshop on Greek deities was ending, and we waited for the group to gather. About 20 people arrived, and after the welcome I introduced myself and the rest of the gang.

Strangely, no one was skyclad. Teri had lied to me, and Bev my wife was happier for it.

I gave my credentials for teaching the workshop - I call it Pagan street Cred - I've been excommunicated from a denomination for making friends with Pagans. That's pretty darn good Street Cred.

The workshop looked something like this:

I taught for between 7 and 10 minutes on 4 different subjects, and between each subject I had the class break up into three groups. John the Dream Master led one group, Matt the Pirate led the second group, and Mary the Goth Theologian and The Prof. Carlos Z. led the third group.

My goal was to teach about those four basic Christian doctrines listed above, and what caused these particular doctrines to be divisive points between Christians and Pagans. My particular focus was to highlight imbalances in the approaches and theology of many Christians, which caused their behavior and attitudes to be negative and hurtful.

I taught first about Hell and Judgment, and shared the fact that this doctrine ought to be a great equalizing doctrine in evangelical circles, because the belief is that all people are destined for Hell or deserving of it. Instead many Christians are proud of some unique heavenly status they think they have, and instead of finding commonality with struggling humanity they become judgmental.

Then the three groups discussed the point and how they felt about Hell and Judgment. There was laughing, and there was serious dialogue, and there was a mixed combination of joy to be talking about these things openly in a mixed religious group, and concern about the treatment many of the Pagans had received from Christians they knew and loved.

Then we discussed Conversion. I told them I was going to be giving them the inside scoop. Something many Christians did not realize, or if they did they somehow lost sight of it in the midst of their zeal. The point was this: No human can convert you. Conversion only occurs as an interaction between deity and a human.

Then our Christian group leaders had to rotate clockwise to change groups. For some reason they couldn't quite figure out clockwise initially - evidence that they are not Pagans and don't normally work in circles. Good thing I did not ask them to rotate deosil. Once they figured it out, the discussion on conversion appeared to be more personal, and filled with stories of pressure Pagans received from Christians.

Thirdly, I taught about Spiritual Dissonance, which is my redefinition of the subject Spiritual Warfare. When I mentioned Spiritual Warfare the group groaned, and understood the ramifications of the term. So we talked about the devil scares of the 1980's through people like Mike Warnke, and Bob Larson. Then we looked for a more balanced view of the subject from a Christian perspective. My hope was to arm Pagans with sound views of Christianity in order to help them counteract bizarre unloving behavior from wacky Christians.

The group rotated deosil once again, and began to discuss this subject. Of course the problem of evil arose in the groups, and this became a point of discussion.

Last of all we talked about the hottest subject of all - sex. I had the group shout a victory shout because we were going to talk about sex, and they did so raucously. I pointed out that the practice of heterosexual, monogamous, wait till marriage sexuality was actually a ritual lifestyle being lived out by Christians who believe that the Church is a Bride to the Son of God, and that our full realization of this union will occur in the second coming. Now we are engaged as it were to Him. Most Christians don't understand that this ritual lifestyle is a choice of beautiful ritual, and not a harsh law. Because they do not understand this they sound harsh when they discuss this issue.

Once again the Christians turned deosil in the circle, and arrived back in the original group they had led. Then they talked sex with Pagans. This was a hot and wild subject. One group was very serious, another group was light but philosophical, and the third was a bawdy group from Salem (I should have known!) in which The Poor Prof. Carlos Z. was being hit on by my friend a gay Pagan and Mary the Goth Theologian was trying to keep a straight face.

The group ended after this, and we all had a good time. I met someone from the COG who was excited about the workshop, and thought it would be good have in a COG setting as well. That would be pretty cool actually, and I would love to do that someday perhaps.

I talked with a number of new friends, and they all appreciated the open discussion combined with the attempts to bring peace between the worlds.

Later that day I talked with Teri. She had mentioned the skyclad joke, and the fact that when she mentioned it to Carole, Carole asked, "What did he do?" Teri replied to Carole, "He worked me, and simply said, 'That's cool.'" Yep, I did work her. I'm not easily surprised, and I've been to enough public Pagan events to know this was not going to be a skyclad event.

Well, it still seems strange to me, but I was able to talk about Hell, Conversion, Spiritual Warfare, and Biblical Sexuality at a Pagan Festival and people loved it. All I can ask myself is, "What the heck have Christians been doing wrong for so long that this has not been able to happen?" Then again I have to remind myself that I have been excommunicated from a middle of the road Pentecostal denomination for doing such things. So, I guess I already know the answer to that question.

Pics to come soon. Although I forgot to get the camera out for the workshop. Sheesh, I always do that.


This post is part of the interfaith synchroblog on interfaith dialogue.

List of participants

• J. R. Miller (Christian) of More Than Cake on A Christian Approach to Interfaith Dialogue


• Liz Dyer (Christian) of Grace Rules on Interreligious Dialogue: Risky Business


• Matt Stone (Christian) of Glocal Christianity on Is Interfaith Interfaith enough?


• Steve Hayes (Christian Orthodox) of Notes from underground on Interreligious dialogue


• Phil Wyman (Christian) of Square No More on A Christian Presenter at Pagan Pride!?


• Beth Patterson (Liberal Christian with Celtic undertones) of Virtual Tea House on Same Stove, Different Teapots


• Yvonne Aburrow (Wiccan Unitarian) of the dance of the elements on Only connect

My Three Day Story

I placed a post on our church blog following my experiences over three recent days. These were not three typical days, but then there really are not typical days in Salem. (I am convinced there really are no typical days anywhere, but that's another story.) So to stop from blathering on here's the link to that story.

Salem: No Place for Hating Witches - SynchroBlog for April 16th, 2008

I am able to take a little time and write this because I completed my taxes months ago.

I really wanted to get away from posting about Neo-Paganism. Yes, I live in Salem, and Witches, Wiccans, Pagans, and the like are the common fare of local experience. Yes, this is home to such groups as The Witchcraft League for Public Awareness, and yes, I do specifically have understanding about the goings-on in the Pagan community because of friendships I have developed over the years, but nonetheless one wishes to write about something else once in a while, but alas recent events have conspired to make this SynchroBlog on the subject of social justice, and the topic of Neo-Paganism blend into one.

On Saturday, April 12th Jerrie Hildebrand and Salem's No Place for Hate Committee organized a panel discussion featuring Jerrie (a Salem Witch and social activist), Salem State professor Elizabeth Duclos-Orsello, and Margot Adler: the host of NPR's "Justice Talking" and a famed Pagan author.

The focus of the public discussion was to highlight Wiccan/Pagan lifestyle and beliefs in order to break misguided public perceptions, and help bring healing and understanding to the community.

So, here is why I need to write about this in my SynchroBlog on Social Activism and Christian Mission - Our church supplied the sound system, and I ran the sound for the event.

An article in Salem News from Monday the 14th highlights this event.

The newspaper seemed to underestimate the crowd from my evaluation. It seemed that there were closer to 100 in the room, which seats about 220, and the Pagan population appeared to be a little more than half the group when hands were raised.

Margot and Jerrie gave a brief history of Neo-Paganism in the US, and in Salem specifically. After about an hour, questions were asked, and the Salem State professor monitored the questions.

Here are some of the statements, and questions which stood out to me during the evening:

Jerrie: "We are single, married, monogamous, with multiple partners, gay, heterosexual, and from every walk of life." That did define the room itself, and the Pagan community as I have come to know it over the years.

Margot: "People are not comfortable talking about religion. After 35 years I can count on two hands the number of people who have asked me to coffee in order to sit down and talk about what I believe." I later asked her if I could come down to new York City sometime and meet her over coffee (I did not mention I hate coffee), to talk about Paganism with her.

The newspaper article outlines some of the questions asked, and points of discussion, and covers the basics of the meeting. My point for writing this is something different altogether: What is the place of the church in creating peaceful discussion with other religious groups?

Reading the comments to the Salem News article one finds what appear to be rather mean spirited comments from Christians. I responded with an apology for the behavior of the those from my tribe who are supposed to be "peacemakers."

Is there a place for social activism to include Christians getting involved in anti-hate campaigns against religious groups with which we theologically disagree on fundamental points of doctrine and truth?

I say yes, and have received not a small portion of condemnation for it.

What do you say?

Live Radio Interview Tomorrow in the UK

I've been asked to do a live radio interview in the UK tomorrow at 10:40am EST (USA). Premier Christian Radio is doing a telephone interview on Wednesday 26th with me at this time. The interview is for the Premier Drive show with Bridgitte Tetteh and Dave Rose.

This is what they asked me to consider:

"I wanted to talk about your ministry in Salem. Probably focusing on Paganism, Neo-Paganism, Witchcraft. To let out listeners realise that this still exists and understand that Witches are real people too.To understand how you can minister or talk to someone who may be into Witchcraft . To talk about your experiences with people that are in to Witchcraft."

I am told that interview will be "general and light."

If you would like to tune in to it you can do so online at Premier Christian Radio at 10:40am EST, or 7:40am PST for my West coast of the USA friends. This means 3:40pm for my friends in the UK.

Blood Ritual and TV Cameras

This last Saturday, I was asked to speak on camera about the subject of Salem's Witches for a show on Treasure HD, which is part of VOOM network. They came to Salem to do a show on Witchcraft highlighting Christian Day, Leanne Marrama, Sandra Power, and the rest of the gang.

I was not sure what the show was about, and did not have any talking points. I simply arrived at the shop Christian recently purchased, asked a few questions concerning context, and was placed in front of a camera.

Kevin, the director of the show "Magnificent Obsessions" asked a few questions: Who I was, and some basic info about the our church The Gathering. Our history of being excommunicated from our previous denomination, because they were afraid of Christians who were on friendly terms with Witches came up.

After a few questions Kevin mentioned that they just finished filming a ritual, and it included the use of blood. He wanted to know what "the church" thought of that.

Now I wasn't particularly prepared for that question, but I did a good job of hiding a moment of surprise. My eyebrows were raising on the inside, but on the outside I held a calm collected unsurprised expression.

You see, I was wondering how to respond to this one. I have many friends who are Witches, and many friends who are Christians. Typically they do not get along with one another, and so I figured this was a question which could leave me up a creek without a paddle with one camp or the other.

If I said that blood ritual is satanic I would alienate many of my Pagan friends. If I said it was acceptable to practice blood ritual I would alienate all my Christian friends. Yet most importantly I had to say what I believe is true, and not play some kind of popularity game.

So, what was I to do?

First of all I did condemn the practice of animal and human sacrifice, but quickly added that this was not what my Neo-Pagan friends were practicing.

Christianity, and its mother religion Judaism have their own connection to blood ritual. We are by our own admittance, and with great pride bloody religions. Sacrifices and war fill the scriptures from Genesis to Malachi. The sacrifice of Christ with an emphasis upon His blood becomes the central point of the Gospel in the New Testament. We sing hymns and choruses about the "Power in the Blood,"

Does the pricking of a finger and the drop of blood in chalice, or the more peculiar use of menstrual blood in spell casting post-figuratively speak to the power of the blood of which I have joyously sung in the comparatively tame church services of my Pentecostal tradition?

As I responded to this question from the producer of the show, and since then have pondered it further it causes to me consider the issue of blood in the religion I practice, and causes me to place it in a position which makes sense both of the power aspect, and of the lack of actual blood in today's Christian services.

Yes, blood has power. As Moses reminds us, "the life is in the blood." Christ's blood has the power of forgiveness, cleansing, and healing in it, and even though we celebrate the Lord's Cup regularly, we look back to the sacrifice which was "once and for all."

As Christians we primarily look back to the blood (even though Orthodox and Catholic Communions may beg to differ here). The blood of Christ was shed two millenia ago, and it has become the focal point of our religious experience. We pursue becoming "peacemakers" to evidence our identification with Christ, and reject the idea that the shedding of blood in war has any eternally effective power in the solving the problems of this world. In terms of identifying power in blood we look back.

As the Mosaic laws of sacrifice prefigured the power in Christ's blood, it may be that blood ritual of the Neo-Paganism post-figuratively speaks in the same manner - There is power in the blood.

An Evening with Spencer and Tod, and PresbYmergent and Karen Sloan

So, last night I did a session with The Oozy guy Spencer Burke. We were at the Cascade People's Center in Seattle. Wow, it was fun! The water reclamation pump kept making noise behind me, and it reminded me of coolness of the place. They were recycling their water for use in the sinks, and toilet. Each time I heard the pump, I thought, "I like this place." Tod Hunter spoke about his view of what's happening in church - he runs Alpha for the US, and use to be the president of the Vineyard Churches in the US. Those are some deep credentials. He and Spencer did a question/answer interview thingy for about 45 minutes, then I did the same thing with Spencer. Spencer is Mr. SoCal Cool, so it easy to do these kind of things with him, but it took an interesting turn, because people automatically began to jump in with questions, and from that point it was a question and answer thing going on for the next 45 minutes. Talking about Neo-Paganism and Witchcraft to Christians can be a lively discussion, and this was one in which people were seriously interested in learning to understand Neo-Paganism without being judgmental. What a cool group of people. Fun time. Before the event I was hanging out with PresbYmergent girl Karen Sloan, and her PresbYmergent gang at an Indian Restaurant run by a Greek guy - great edgy Indian food - I had pomegranate chicken - yeah that rocks, simply by the name. After the evening event we went to a Belgian pub with some of the same gang. Broward's in the Fremont District is a Belgian pub with 150 beers on tap. I think it may be Karen Ward's favorite pub.

Catching up on Blogging the Conference

Yesterday afternoon John Smulo and I taught on "Loving Witches and other missional mythbusters."

It was a one hour and 10 minute workshop. John is so good, so smart, so gentle. It was fun teaching with him. Both John and I are finding people who know about us, and have been wanting to meet us. This world of blogging is a major reason for this.

The workshop went well. It was a very receptive group. Some of them had friends, and loved ones who were in Wiccans, or Pagans, and weren't sure how to deal with it, but for the most part understood that they needed to remain accepting, and loving. Others were simply wondering how to relate to the Pagan community, although they did not know any Witches. As is the always the case they will discover that they do know Neo-Pagans. Regularly, John and I discover that we train people about beliefs of Neo-Paganism, and then when the Christians walk away from the time, they discover in a short amount of time that Wiccans, Druids, or Pagans in their neighborhood, or workplace, and they had never realized it. They actually become excited, and honored to discover that their Pagan friends are willing to "come out of the broom closet" to them - this is the way it ought to be. Christians should be like Jesus, Who is someone we can all feel like we can come out to.